Tea Party

[13-dreamcatcher]

Ah, hedge funds.  It's almost sickening how they can just seem to generate money out of thin air and make the brokers rich as sweetened molasses.  And actually, I saw a Nova program fairly recently about why people act so peculiarly around money.  It went a long way to challenging the notion that people behave in a rational manner when it comes to money.  It seems to be quite the contrary, actually.  Money seems to light up certain areas of the brain that deal with rewards and the pleasure derived from them, much in the same way that sex and certain drugs do — among other things, obviously, but those are some of the big ones that I can remember off the top of my head.  It was a rather enlightening program.  They had an experiment where they auctioned off a $20 bill and the second highest bidder had to pay whatever the winning bid was.  Ended up with the 20 going for $28.  Now that's irrational no matter how you look at it.

[Lilly Saku]

Ugh it is absolutely sickening! That money doesn't exist! Why do people keep buying and investing in them? It looks like you're getting 20% profit and sometimes it may look like wall st. just jumped 100% in stock but honestly! Think about it! It's just paper figures! And all those shady, seemingly profitable deals will crumble eventually right before your eyes! But of course nobody realizes that, and we still aren't regulating those hedge funds. And by regulation...that means telling people what they are buying. And those businesses lobby against that because what people are buying are not things people should be buying... obviously! =__='' durrrr.

haha okay end of rant. But lol yes people are definitely irrational about money and there is some sort of weird pleasure people get from spending. I watch my sister and mom shop like crazy and I'm just utterly confused. Why are you buying that? You just said it didn't look good on you! Uhm, why are you buying that like super expensive and HIDEOUS bag? OH because it's a brand name and its expensiveness makes it feel even more worthwhile? x__x;; I dunno, I'm just not into splurging my money. (unless it's something to do with food/books. But those things are so worth the money!!) But spending isn't a bad thing. You HAVE to spend money, that's what it's for. Being stingy is a fault of mine cuz I don't know how to spend money very well. It's just blind, unnecessary, irrational spending that irks me.

[13-dreamcatcher]

The thing is, though, that Nova program also stated that the primary economic theories that just about all economists subscribe to assume that people treat money rationally, that they evaluate situations involving money as if they were performing certain calculations in their head.  And some of the people they featured were pretty dogged in defending this view of economics.  Personally, the evidence to the contrary (along with the fact that those theories can't really predict bubble patterns and how many of those same economists that subscribe to those theories don't even like the concept of bubbles because they consider them too irrationally caused) was just too great for any of that to make sense.

And it's funny that you should say that money is there to be spent.  I have a character in my pet project who had pretty much the same exact thoughts.  Of course, that character's economy is much more straightforward than ours, but what can you do in a fantasy-type series of stories?  Most of the problems people have with spending their money is that they don't know how to define and differentiate between their needs and wants, and which wants are okay to pursue and fulfill and which ones aren't.

[Lilly Saku]

Oh, right. Forgot about them theorists. I don't know what to think of them, because they some honestly believe in their theories as if they were actually religions. ie. Greenspan. While contrary evidence exists and the reality that their beliefs aren't always correctly predicting the economy, they just say these problems aren't anything related to their theories and are just some random mishap. And those irrelevant studies are on a pool of ppl that don't actually represent the entire population. And people believe them, because many economists are indeed often successful, and people don't understand anything so why shouldn't they believe them? They don't know that contrary evidence and a Nova program exists, so basically those theorists have complete control.

But theories are theories. Humans are humans, not machines. The world has changed a lot, and sometimes Smith doesn't apply anymore. Thus, our current poop and the future's continuing sludge. I respect Greenspan somewhat because I watched his apology speech, and I was shocked beyond belief. This man, who was successful for half a lifetime, believed in Ayn Rand's philosophy as though it were a religion, suddenly came up and said he was wrong. He admitted the faults in his core philosophy a little too late, but at least he realized he was wrong. He looked crushed, because that's how much he honestly believed that corruption is impossible in an economy with "self-regulation" (but hedge funds, gambling, and corruption exist...).

Uhm oops.. that went off a tangent. I think we were talking about spending...not smith haha... =__='' Anyways, that last statement was pretty much my thoughts on spending as well. xD .. I'd dig holes in my backyard and stuff money in them, but obviously that's not going to do anything. So the reverse of spending freely is almost just as bad.

[13-dreamcatcher]

Well, specifically speaking, we've been off the original topic for a while now, but it doesn't really matter since we pretty much are discussing current events.  But, as it is, I'm finding that I don't really have much else to say.  I guess I'll just have to wait and see what other sorts of news comes down the pipeline.  Unless we want to focus our discussion on the potential economic disaster that is going to occur in the Gulf Coast because of that leaking oil well.  Not to even mention the environmental aspect.

[Lilly Saku]

Oh all right. I'm sorry I've derailed the convo from its original intent.
I'll say one last thing before starting on the Oil Spill... that I read an article about how ppl (i think it was tea party ppl? Maybe not, but I thought it was. Doesn't make much sense if some of them said, get off medicare! though) have been saying that America should be careful as to not end up like Greece by taking away the social security system and welfare stuff.
Now that's just crazy. Entitlement programs do indeed involve lots of money and is expanding due to increasing life expectancies, but its basically a sacred cow and nobody's going to touch it. And we may be in debt, but we're not steeped in it so deeply like Greece! I hate how some people think that by just taking away welfare the world is going to be better. Are you serious??? There are people out there with serious disabilities, sicknesses, unemployment, and old age that need to be taken care of b/c they really can't afford things like seriously expensive medical care! Taking away their entitlements would make our society worse!

And if people really want America to get out of debt, honestly...i think it would be to have inheritance tax and progressive taxes. But nobody wants to have taxes...

Uhm and on the Oil spill, it's just getting worse and worse because nobody knows an efficient way to stop it from expanding. This troubles things like fishing businesses, and i think they're demanding compensation but maybe that was something else. And the oil company BP is getting into big trouble, thank god because they don't deserve any slack for this terrible catastrophe!

[13-dreamcatcher]

Ah, yes, the "anti-socialism" nuts barking about welfare programs and how they should be abolished.  What I would like to ask these people is this: If the United States is supposedly founded on Christian ideals and one of those ideals being helping others regardless of your own situation or the reasons that they fell into such dire straits, why would they essentially want to destroy the programs that essentially operate on this principle?  I mean, sure, it would prevent us from having to spend money but it would also, as you said, lead to even greater problems.  I would like to see how these people would get along in the era before we had programs like this, such as when the Industrial Revolution was in full swing.  The reason that the government regulates things is because otherwise things go south really quickly when humans and money and status and "getting ahead" are involved.  We stop at nothing to try to achieve a better life for ourselves and don't care so much what happens to others when we actually do things to achieve that goal.  It's the "look out for number one" philosophy that is essentially a part of survival.  Still, we have something that most other species lack, empathy for our fellows; and we demonstrate it to a much higher degree than any other species that potentially possess it.  But what good does having that sort of capability do if you aren't going to act on it?  That's what's really stupid about these imbeciles who think that every program that has been instituted by the government to give people a hand is just "socialism."  The root of the word "socialism" is the same as the word for "social" and I think "society," so in a way, as long as we exhist in civilizations, we are going to be exhibiting some form of socialism because we are all interdependent on each other anyway.  I mean, the exact opposite of what they are calling "socialism" would essentially be a hermit's existence, but that can only work with really small numbers, such as you would find in native populations before their traditional ways of life were subverted and practically wiped out.

Whew.  That was a long rant.  And I personally think that people should change their attitude about taxes.  Sure, nobody really want to have to pay taxes (it's the same sentiment that drives people to seek out bargains for just about every purchase, actually) but it's pretty much a societal duty with the system of civilization that we have set up.  If you don't pay taxes, the government has no money to operate sufficiently or at all.  And if that happens, then the nation is open to invasion by some other political element or system, which may impose it's own, more diabolical methodologies to ruling people.  And that would be after the state of anarchy that would be present from the collapse of any government system.  Just look at the rising unrest in Thailand at the present moment.  That could be something completely different, as I haven't been paying much attention to it lately due to circumstances that have prevented me from watching the news over the past few days, but the underlying chaotic atmosphere is essentially the same as the scenario I have presented.  In short, people shouldn't mind paying taxes and only raise a stink when those taxes start to get into the exhorbitant range.  As long as they aren't preposterously high, what should people care that they have to pay them?  Again, it's part of their duty as citizens, not quite on a par with voting but still pretty high up on the list.

And I'm going to stop this post now.  If it continue, my fingers are going to catch fire and destroy my keyboard.